'When a person says so-and-so is angry with you, you take it seriously,' the minister told Parliament on Friday.
Police Minister Senzo Mchunu has accused KwaZulu-Natal (KZN) Police Commissioner Nhlanhla Mkhwanazi of making threats in response to his decision to dismantle the political killings task team (PKTT), while emphasising that President Cyril Ramaphosa supported the disbandment.
On Friday, Mchunu appeared for the second day before Parliament’s ad hoc committee at the Good Hope Chamber in Cape Town.
The inquiry is investigating allegations made by Mkhwanazi in July about criminal infiltration, corruption, and political interference in the justice system.
Mchunu, currently on special leave, faces accusations that he disbanded the KZN-based PKTT to halt investigations into a drug cartel.
Mkhwanazi’s WhatsApp message to Mchunu
Mchunu told the committee he received a WhatsApp message from Mkhwanazi in early April, asking for a meeting to discuss “internal issues” that could “destabilise” the South African Police Service (Saps) and affect the KZN police commissioner’s family.
“This situation is escalating. It has the potential of demoralising our hard-working members, and there are even politicians that are using these social media posts to sow divisions within Saps.”
“I do not like what’s happening; hence, I feel the minister must call us into a meeting so we can iron out everything that is dominating the media space,” Mkhwanazi wrote.
The commissioner asked that Mchunu’s chief of staff Cedric Nkabinde, National Police Commissioner Fannie Masemola, suspended Deputy National Police Commissioner Shadrack Sibiya, Crime Intelligence head Dumisani Khumalo, the head of Counter and Security Intelligence Feroz Khan, and North West businessman Brown Mogotsi attend the meeting.
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Mchunu responded, telling Mkhwanazi that he would revert back to him, but never did.
“I couldn’t convene a meeting like that where I invite Brown Mogotsi, who is outside the organisation,” Mchunu said on why he did not get back to Mkhwanazi at a later stage.
He added that he wanted a private meeting with Mkhwanazi to understand the situation better.
“My thought was I would have a meeting with him so he could take me into confidence to discuss this matter.”
Mchunu claims Mkhwanazi warned of a ‘fight back’
Mchunu recalled that in early January, Nkabinde told him Mkhwanazi was very angry about the leaked disbandment letter.
According to the minister, Nkabinde said Mkhwanazi had instructed him to advise the minister to retract the letter, warning of strong pushback if it was not withdrawn.
“One of the things that was racing in my mind, how does this affect General Mkhwanazi to a point he would say there’s going to be a fight back?”
But Mchunu emphasised that Mkhwanazi’s anger “can’t be policy of a country”.
“It can’t instruct the minister,” he said.
Audio recording
Mchunu later revealed a 13-minute recording of Nkabinde’s conversation with Mkhwanazi, played after the lunch break.
In the audio clip, Mkhwanazi expressed concern over the disbandment of the PKTT, asking where the task team’s dockets would go and warning about the impact on ongoing investigations.
“We are talking about operational things. You cannot say this works, and this does not work. Who are you to say that? How do you come to a conclusion to say that?
“Unless you have intelligence that there is manipulation, there is this, and then you can justify and say, ‘Wait, before you continue, please brief me about this: that’s understandable,'” Mkhwanazi said in the recording.
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“But to stop an operation, an investigation on its tracks, it’s going to have some implications, and that was my concern,” he added.
The commissioner also shared concerns about certain police officials, specifically Khan and Sibiya, whom he said “has his own history”.
“Personally, I know about the relationship Khan has with Julius [Malema]. I know how close they are,” Mkhwanazi added.
The audio cut abruptly with four minutes remaining.
Watch the ad hoc committee inquiry below:
Mchunu on Mkhwanazi’s ‘threat’
Mchunu claimed that the recording included a portion in which Mkhwanazi was allegedly making threats, suggesting that if the minister was “clean”, he should proceed with the disbandment.
“To me, that was a threat, and it was also a promise that somebody is going to go back [to look at] what did I do wrong while I was an MEC or while I was premier, while I was in water [and sanitation department], and I have no problem with that.
“But in the context in which it was said, it becomes a weapon to say, don’t do this even if it’s correct, even if it is lawful, even if it’s constitutional, because I don’t like it. If you do it, I will go and dig what you did wrong at some point.”
READ MORE: Masemola withheld information regarding PKTT disbandment, Mchunu tells parliament
Asked if Mkhwanazi knew he was being recorded, Mchunu said he asked Nkabinde to record conversations because of the threats.
“When a person says so-and-so is angry with you, you take it seriously.”
The audio was later replayed, but Mchunu noted this might not have been the same recording in which the alleged threat was made.
Ramaphosa briefing
Mchunu testified that he had briefed President Ramaphosa about his decision to disband the PKTT:
“It was not an elaborate kind of a presentation and a discussion. It was just a briefing that I’ve taken that decision,” he told the committee.
He added that the president agreed with his decision.
The parliamentary inquiry is set to resume on Tuesday.
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