'What we're doing here is justice. You'd rather not tell us the story if we're not going to attach names,' said an MP.
ANC, MK party and ActionSA MPs were unimpressed with Dr Mary de Haas’ testimony in parliament on Tuesday.
De Haas was called in to testify following suspended Police Minister Senzo Mchunu’s testimony, in which he stated that her complaints were among the reasons he disbanded the political killings task team (PKTT).
De Haas said Lieutenant-General Dumisani Khumalo was not qualified to lead the task team or Crime Intelligence.
She further said his subordinates did not speak well of him.
She claimed that late EFF MP Phillip Mhlongo had contacted her and told her that one of Khumalo’s subordinates from the operational response service in Pretoria, when Khumalo was acting head there, had complained about him.
“There was so much trouble there, including internal conflicts. Things were getting really nasty because they couldn’t accept Khumalo’s leadership; it was very toxic. Khumalo then became the project manager for the task team. He was obviously well-trained by the KZN police guarding King Goodwill Zwelithini.”
In light of Khumalo’s background and the “horror” stories she had heard about the PKTT, she wrote letters to Mchunu requesting that he disband the PKTT.
‘Immediately disband PKTT’
She asked Mchunu to take urgent action to deal with the “abuses and gross wastage of personnel and financial resources” by the “irregularly constituted PKTT”.
“I request that you instruct the national commissioner to immediately disband the irregularly constituted, unnecessary and wasteful PKTT and send its detectives back to the detective services provincially and nationally,” part of her letter reads.
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She further requested that Mchunu stop Khumalo’s appointment at Crime Intelligence because “he doesn’t qualify” for the role.
“The PKTT is unnecessary because we have perfectly good teams in the country,” she said.
“I have never in my life, in the years I’ve worked with police, heard of a task team running around with members of the national intervention unit staying in expensive hotels.”
However, she never thought the minister would act, as he never responded to her letters.
“I never thought the minister would act. I’ve never had ministers acting when I asked them to do things before.”
‘Where are the names?’
Throughout her testimony, De Haas opted to withhold some names, especially those she quoted as sources of the allegations against the PKTT.
However, MPs said withholding names would hinder them from executing their duties.
“It’s like we’re gossiping here,” said MK party MP David Skosana.
“She must refrain from giving us nameless information because there’s nothing we can do about it. She must either give us names or set aside testimony without names,” he said.
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“Her testimony is largely reliant on secondary sources. It is worrying that she is not willing to reveal the sources, as it raises questions about how we can put value on the evidence presented to us and how we can verify her claims.”
De Haas said she could not reveal names for ethical reasons.
“I cannot reveal a source of somebody who might get killed for telling me. This is an ethical problem; I had to give people my word that I would not reveal. I’ve spoken to these people; this is first-hand information. As a social worker, I had to take an oath of confidentiality.”
‘Ethics have long left this room’
Action SA MP Dereleen James said it was “too late” to be citing “ethical reasons” when the country was burning. She also took issue with De Haas’ tendency to meander when responding to questions.
“Our communities are under siege, our children are being fed drugs, and we are here to get to the truth,” said James.
“Ethics have long left this room and this country; it’s too late for that now. We need names.
“And when you get asked a question, I find that the witness sometimes will get asked a simple question, and we must hear about other things. Please, can we stick to the question, give a frank, honest answer, and can we move on and get names? We have been listening to this all morning, and we have been patient with the witness; time is moving, we don’t have time. Can we please get to the bottom of this now?
“There are a lot of inconsistencies in her statement. Out of respect, it’s been going on the entire morning, she’s not getting to the point, and we’re getting derailed.”
‘You can’t also roll your eyes while we’re talking’
EFF MP Leigh-Ann Mathys pulled no punches either.
“What we’re doing here is justice. You’d rather not tell us the story if we’re not going to attach names. And you can’t talk while I’m talking, so let’s take a chill pill for a little bit. We understand we’re in a hostile environment where people get killed, but we’d rather not hear the story, because it makes it difficult for us to do our job. You can’t also roll your eyes while we’re talking.”
De Haas said she would not have gone to parliament “if I had known that I couldn’t withhold people’s names for ethical reasons because they might get killed”.
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